Music and Worship

[JesusFreak!!!]

Ok, this is a really really touchy issue for allot of people. Even allot of people in quizzing. I think this is probably one of the spiritual points on which people in BQF have the most diverse viewpoints. My take is partially undecided, but for the most part I've made up my mind. I want to hear what you say before I put in my two cents though.

So, here's the question put extremely bluntly: Does super hard core music honor God? Not can it glorify him, does it honor him. God can use sin to glorify him. (i.e. someone sees the fruits of sin in someone else's life, and turns away from it, or recovery from an addiction builds a testimony.) But sin in itself does not either honor or glorify God. In essence, Do the lyrics define a song, or the genre? Or is it the lives of the band members? Maybe someone growling "Jesus Saves" into a mic with heavy metal guitars, who practices what he preaches honors God more than somebody who sings "My God is mighty to save" on Sunday, and then goes home and lives like there's nothing to be saved from? (From a musical standpoint that is.)

I need you to lay aside your personal musical taste for a bit and try listening to this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnRTfjPohYw

Here's the thing, as I was researching this a bit I happened upon the opposing worldview of this same genre, namely Satanist Black Metal. I watched a couple music videos to get an idea of the extent to which the genre goes in that direction. There is NO way I'm sharing a link to any of those videos on here! I'm not sure it was worth it, and I don't recommend you do the same unless your prepared to get a heavy dose of... If you want I'll give a couple brief examples, but don't look up the videos.

Is it possible that Satan "owns" the superhardcoredeathmetalwhateveryouwanttocallit genre? Even if that's true, bands singing stuff like the link I posted obviously aren't worshiping Satan or anything, but they would be trying to copy him. You don't become a drunk to convince drunks to let go of alcohol. "But people who listen to that stuff won't ever listen to hymns and stuff! It's the only way to reach them!" Well drunks usually don't listen to preachers in a suit and tie either. You get the point.
This is the problem, if (big if) That's true, where do you draw the line? You can't draw a line between hardcore metal and softcore metal and say that Satan owns this side and God owns that side. You've gotta' be consistent. You might have to even go so far as to say TFK and Skillet.

Now for the million dollar question that you've been thinking this whole time: Then what about rap? If you have any doubts about Christian rap, type in Lecrae in the youtube search bar, and watch some of the videos. I guarantee your doubts will be gone.
Christian rap is one reason I think "worldly Christian" music honors God. But wait a second, didn't I just pretty much spend the majority of what I've said so far on claims supporting that heavy metal is bad in essence? That's not what I think, I'm just arguing the point to understand the whole concept I guess. A quick thing about rap vs. Metal is that in general, the messages of the world's side of the genres are different. Rap is more of a hedonistic "do whatever brings me pleasure" thing, while black metal is purely God hating and satan worshiping. Is there a difference when it comes down to it? I don't know.

The simple fact is that there aren't many other (if any) genres of music which have bands that worship satan nearly to the extent that the various types of hard core/metal do. Metal started as a worldly genre, and Christianity is copying it in an attempt to win people over. (Win people over to Christ, not to other kinds of music.) Pretty much to sum up this whole post: Is copying the world a good way to reach the world? Or is conforming (If it is that) merely driving Christians further from God? I know that's a really bold question, and I mostly have a view on it, but what's yours?

And now for yet another aspect of this highly controversial topic! Yay! ...My brain's about to blow up.
Why does contemporary worship sometimes seem.. well... fake? I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, most likely every teenage and up Christian has seen it at one time or another. I've got a few theories. Sometimes it might be one thing, sometimes another, but these are a couple reasons I think it's that way sometimes.
1. It's more of a show than it is worship.
2. It's really badly done.
3. The words sound good, but on a sheet of paper they wouldn't make much sense at all. Or they're more about us than they are about God. ("I will worship, with all of my heart. And I will serve you, with all my strength") Kinda' a bad example, because there are parts of that song that really focus on God, but singing those two lines is really just singing a lie if you mean what it says. It's like "I will... I will... I will... etc." How about we sing about how God's saved us from the fact that it's impossible for us to give him everything because were sinful? Like I said, bad example, but once again I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Basically the lyrics are just a bunch of emotional fluff.
4. Sin is withholding the Holy Spirit. Ok, not withholding, but maybe we're pushing the Spirit away.
5. And here's the controversial one that I'm not sure about. Because it's attempting to draw in the world by being like it. True, the drunk might not listen to the pastor, just like the punk might not listen to the hymn, but what about Romans 12:1-2? "Do not conform to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God." That creates a dilemma right there. True, they're not conforming by singing about sex and drugs, but are they conforming by translating God's message to the world's language? Somehow I don't think so, but then why not have heavy metal church services? Sure, most people wouldn't like it, but not only because of their personal taste.

Note: That list of five things which might make contemporary worship seem fake is not a list of what contemporary worship is. It's a list of what it can become in my opinion, and what I have seen it as before. And I agree that #2 and #4 apply to all types of worship.

Is satan using "worldly Christian"* music to infiltrate the the body of Christ? or is God using "worldly Christian" music to influence the world?

*By worldly Christian music I mean that rock music/metal/etc. originated as a secular genre, and then Christians started adapting to it. And that's another question, are Christians adapting or conforming?

Woooooow... that was such a rant! I'm not even sure if this'll make sense to anybody, but we'll see.
And Garth and Elizabeth, I mainly did this because I know you guys can see where I'm coming from, and you're pretty much the only two people consistently on here right now. If this were a super active forum with lots of quizzers I probably wouldn't post this. I know quizzers who would get offended if I brought this topic up. So your thoughts especially are appreciated. Not that I don't want the rest of y'all to post! 'cuz pretty much everybody on here atm knows what I'm talking about I think. It's just that some people would just say to this entire thread, "You're an idiot, God can use anything for his glory."

P.S. Please don't lock this thread yet Lumpy! At least give people a chance to respond!

[JesusFreak!!!]

Wow that's long...
Just a note: I don't really like death metal, and I can't stand hard core screamo.

[GarthVader]

Wow. Really interesting stuff, Austin.

Hm... my post will not nearly be as long as yours.

I listened to the link. The lyrics were good. But I hated the singing. Positively hated it. Now... here's what one could argue. Yes, the lyrics are good. But, to some people, that may sound demonic. (I know my mom would think so) Plus, is just having good lyrics 'good enough'? (I think lyrics are important, don't get me wrong)

But the way you sing some things can have some affect on the way people view you. Remember that we are to give no appearance of evil? Well, in some ways singing like that could give that impression.

Do you think a band like that would ever play at Nationals or something? No. I know that people have lots of different tastes in music. Some like country, some hate it. That doesn't make it bad. But then why would we never consider playing music like that in some places? I mean, isn't it Christian?

Hm...

Last year at Nationals I had some issue with the music. It seemed WAY to focused on the band playing. Sometimes you couldn't even hear people singing!

Also, a lot of the songs were self-centered. Or just plain silly. (That inside-outside-upside down Kingdom for one) If they are like that (silly or self-centered) than, personally, I find it impossible to truly worship. It just seems, like you say, so fake.

I LOVED the music at the Minnesota Nationals, though. I think it is most powerful when, at the height of the song, the music stops. 600 people sing at the top of their voices in unison. That, my friend, is awesome.





By the way, what are you doing on here at 2:00 AM?

[JesusFreak!!!]

That's making the assumption that death metal is evil in essence. That's what I'm trying to get at here. See, if the only thing that makes hardcore evil is the lyrics, then when the lyrics are changed it is no longer evil.
But if putting God honoring lyrics to death metal is the appearance of evil, then that means that death metal in itself is evil. Like an instrumental death metal song with no lyrics would be evil. This doesn't mean that God can't use Christian death metal to glorify himself by reaching out to people who only listen to that kind of music. But it would mean that Christian death metal does not honor God in itself. (Just like God can use sin for his glory, but sin in itself doesn't glorify him.)
If the underlying assumption is true that that kind of music is evil, then where is the line drawn? You can't say, "soft metal honors God, but heavy metal doesn't." That would trace all the way back to Christian rock bands like Skillet. It's either all God's or All satan's. Not the lyrics of course, but the type of music.

That's what I'm having trouble with. Either Christians death metal is wrong, and therefore all Christian rock is wrong, or Christian rock is ok, and therefore Christian death metal is ok. Make sense?

And I know this all sounds really black and white, but here's a couple examples from those vids I watched just to put it into perspective.
At one point in one of them a band member is standing at the foot of a cross shaking his fist at it screaming something along the lines of, "I'll take back what you've taken from me."
One band member hands another a set of three dice; he rolls them, and it's a 666.
One song which is set during the crusades is called serpentine offering. A monk throws down the cross he's wearing, and sacrifices to satan while holding a snake. At the end a bunch of black knights come and slaughter the crusaders.
Sorry about that, but I had to get it out of my system. Although it wasn't worth watching those and I felt like throwing up, now that I have (watched them), it really gave me a dose of reality. Contrary to popular belief, demon possessed witch doctors in Africa aren't the only ones who worship satan. There are people in America today who know God and satan are real, and they want satan to win. And those people aren't as thinly spread as you might think. Those videos had 5 star ratings with around 8,000 rates. I looked at the comments and saw nothing but, "awesome music!" and "best band ever!" Even if satan isn't infiltrating the church with music, he's infiltrating the culture.

And I had allot of issue with the music at nationals as well. I'm not saying they did a bad job, 'cuz they played magnificently. But like you said, it seemed like a show, and allot of the songs weren't even focused on God. And I'm not saying it was all that way, 'cuz when Ben Kinsey got up there and played it was different. It's just, why does a red flag go off in my head as soon as the words on the screen are "I wanna' be your lover"? Although part of it was my personal dislike for emotional fluff, it's more than that.

I started typing at 11:30 PM. It's really hard to put this kind of stuff into words.